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	<title>Comments for Dark Places. Stories we create in play.</title>
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	<lastBuildDate>Mon, 21 Sep 2009 12:38:44 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>Comment on Story games to the people by storyshtick</title>
		<link>http://darkplaces.wordpress.com/2009/09/19/story-games-to-the-people/#comment-53</link>
		<dc:creator>storyshtick</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 21 Sep 2009 12:38:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://darkplaces.wordpress.com/?p=99#comment-53</guid>
		<description>Anywhere other than that forum the term isn&#039;t as taboo or controversial. I&#039;m going to keep using it because I haven&#039;t found a better term.

I think I do a fair job of pitch what SGs are about. Generally I start with, &quot;They&#039;re more about &#039;our story&#039; than &#039;my character&#039;.&quot; Sometimes I&#039;ll talk about distributed authority or the difference between task resolution and conflict resolution. I try to stick to things that directly affect play and steer away from &#039;rules light&#039; and most of GNS; but lately I&#039;ve been talking about Story Now and emphasizing that there is no pre-made scenario. 

Sometimes I get people interested. Sometimes people decide that Story Games aren&#039;t for them. I really wish I could play a Story Game with everyone that asked as playing them is a whole lot more informative than talking about them.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Anywhere other than that forum the term isn&#8217;t as taboo or controversial. I&#8217;m going to keep using it because I haven&#8217;t found a better term.</p>
<p>I think I do a fair job of pitch what SGs are about. Generally I start with, &#8220;They&#8217;re more about &#8216;our story&#8217; than &#8216;my character&#8217;.&#8221; Sometimes I&#8217;ll talk about distributed authority or the difference between task resolution and conflict resolution. I try to stick to things that directly affect play and steer away from &#8216;rules light&#8217; and most of GNS; but lately I&#8217;ve been talking about Story Now and emphasizing that there is no pre-made scenario. </p>
<p>Sometimes I get people interested. Sometimes people decide that Story Games aren&#8217;t for them. I really wish I could play a Story Game with everyone that asked as playing them is a whole lot more informative than talking about them.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Story games to the people by Per Fischer</title>
		<link>http://darkplaces.wordpress.com/2009/09/19/story-games-to-the-people/#comment-52</link>
		<dc:creator>Per Fischer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 21 Sep 2009 08:32:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://darkplaces.wordpress.com/?p=99#comment-52</guid>
		<description>Scott, I&#039;ll try to dig out those posts on SG if possible, and have a look them. So, did you try to sell story games to non-gaming people - how did you approach it and did it work?

EDIT: I think I found one of them
http://story-games.com/forums/comments.php?DiscussionID=6846

Oh, my, I see we&#039;re entering a world of pain here, so let&#039;s not go there. I just need a yummy marketing term for the activity, to be able to introduce non-gamers to story jamming - actually, to story now as an activity. If &quot;story games&quot; is taboo for that, them Iet&#039;s find another :)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Scott, I&#8217;ll try to dig out those posts on SG if possible, and have a look them. So, did you try to sell story games to non-gaming people &#8211; how did you approach it and did it work?</p>
<p>EDIT: I think I found one of them<br />
<a href="http://story-games.com/forums/comments.php?DiscussionID=6846" rel="nofollow">http://story-games.com/forums/comments.php?DiscussionID=6846</a></p>
<p>Oh, my, I see we&#8217;re entering a world of pain here, so let&#8217;s not go there. I just need a yummy marketing term for the activity, to be able to introduce non-gamers to story jamming &#8211; actually, to story now as an activity. If &#8220;story games&#8221; is taboo for that, them Iet&#8217;s find another <img src='http://s.wordpress.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>Comment on Story games to the people by storyshtick</title>
		<link>http://darkplaces.wordpress.com/2009/09/19/story-games-to-the-people/#comment-51</link>
		<dc:creator>storyshtick</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 20 Sep 2009 17:00:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://darkplaces.wordpress.com/?p=99#comment-51</guid>
		<description>I was referring to what Luke Crane was doing in putting down the term &quot;Story Games&quot; as &quot;avoiding divisiveness&quot;. I consider Burning Empires, in particular, to be a Story Game and a sterling example of &quot;Story Now!&quot; play. My guess is that he wants to reach as many traditional RPGers as possible, so he doesn&#039;t like his stuff being called Story Games. 

I don&#039;t want to dig through the SG forum for other examples, but about a year ago I was planning to run my first Story Games Lounge at a convention and I went there looking for advice on how to sell the idea of Story Games to people. I got a lot of push back, much from people there who have published games, that it was basically wrong to talk about Story Games as a whole. That was a rather bizarre and unexpected response as I&#039;m basically promoting their games or similar games and trying to get more people interested. I guess they don&#039;t want that?

I don&#039;t see why different things can&#039;t have different terms. Yes, lots of people play D&amp;D and Dogs and BE. But what they are doing in those games is fundamentally different; even more so if they&#039;re playing Polaris or Dirty Secrets. It seems like no matter how many times you say, &quot;They aren&#039;t better games, just different game,&quot; people that want to still hear hate when they hear &quot;Story Games&quot;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I was referring to what Luke Crane was doing in putting down the term &#8220;Story Games&#8221; as &#8220;avoiding divisiveness&#8221;. I consider Burning Empires, in particular, to be a Story Game and a sterling example of &#8220;Story Now!&#8221; play. My guess is that he wants to reach as many traditional RPGers as possible, so he doesn&#8217;t like his stuff being called Story Games. </p>
<p>I don&#8217;t want to dig through the SG forum for other examples, but about a year ago I was planning to run my first Story Games Lounge at a convention and I went there looking for advice on how to sell the idea of Story Games to people. I got a lot of push back, much from people there who have published games, that it was basically wrong to talk about Story Games as a whole. That was a rather bizarre and unexpected response as I&#8217;m basically promoting their games or similar games and trying to get more people interested. I guess they don&#8217;t want that?</p>
<p>I don&#8217;t see why different things can&#8217;t have different terms. Yes, lots of people play D&amp;D and Dogs and BE. But what they are doing in those games is fundamentally different; even more so if they&#8217;re playing Polaris or Dirty Secrets. It seems like no matter how many times you say, &#8220;They aren&#8217;t better games, just different game,&#8221; people that want to still hear hate when they hear &#8220;Story Games&#8221;.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Story games to the people by Per Fischer</title>
		<link>http://darkplaces.wordpress.com/2009/09/19/story-games-to-the-people/#comment-50</link>
		<dc:creator>Per Fischer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 20 Sep 2009 14:06:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://darkplaces.wordpress.com/?p=99#comment-50</guid>
		<description>Scott(?), I can&#039;t say I&#039;ve encountered that &quot;avoiding divisiveness&quot; tendency, but if you have examples that would be interesting. To me it almost looks like the opposite is happening right now with designers embracing old-school stuff (which I don&#039;t really have an interest in, to be honest).

That said, I&#039;m sure there&#039;s lots to debate within the gaming community - I&#039;m trying not to go there, but instead looking at: how can I get my friends and colleagues interested in this shared experience we at the moment call story games.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Scott(?), I can&#8217;t say I&#8217;ve encountered that &#8220;avoiding divisiveness&#8221; tendency, but if you have examples that would be interesting. To me it almost looks like the opposite is happening right now with designers embracing old-school stuff (which I don&#8217;t really have an interest in, to be honest).</p>
<p>That said, I&#8217;m sure there&#8217;s lots to debate within the gaming community &#8211; I&#8217;m trying not to go there, but instead looking at: how can I get my friends and colleagues interested in this shared experience we at the moment call story games.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Story games to the people by storyshtick</title>
		<link>http://darkplaces.wordpress.com/2009/09/19/story-games-to-the-people/#comment-49</link>
		<dc:creator>storyshtick</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 20 Sep 2009 13:42:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://darkplaces.wordpress.com/?p=99#comment-49</guid>
		<description>Christian, I think you&#039;re right in how the term Story Games is used on that forum, but that doesn&#039;t have much, if anything, to do with talking to other gamers at a convention or running games in your local community. There the term means, &quot;Come try these games that are different from what you have played before.&quot; I&#039;m sure many would find that divisive, but if I said, &quot;Come play roleplaying games,&quot; and then pulled out a bunch of stuff that was completely different in format and configuration (distributed authority, no GM, etc) from what anyone expected, then I would be doing a disservice to the participants. Likewise, if I said, &quot;Hey, come play roleplaying games. We can play any that you like, but I&#039;ve got these new ones I want to try,&quot; and then players showed up and decided to play D&amp;D, then I would quit and never run an event open to the public again. 

I really think game designers need to stop hurting the communities that are trying to build around their games. It&#039;s a weird pattern I&#039;ve noticed over the last several years. Their desire to &quot;avoid divisiveness&quot; is greater than their desire to support people that are actively running their games and teaching other people how to play them at conventions. I don&#039;t know if that&#039;s what Luke Crane was on about in the interview because I haven&#039;t listened to it yet, but I&#039;ve seen it from other designers and it baffles me.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Christian, I think you&#8217;re right in how the term Story Games is used on that forum, but that doesn&#8217;t have much, if anything, to do with talking to other gamers at a convention or running games in your local community. There the term means, &#8220;Come try these games that are different from what you have played before.&#8221; I&#8217;m sure many would find that divisive, but if I said, &#8220;Come play roleplaying games,&#8221; and then pulled out a bunch of stuff that was completely different in format and configuration (distributed authority, no GM, etc) from what anyone expected, then I would be doing a disservice to the participants. Likewise, if I said, &#8220;Hey, come play roleplaying games. We can play any that you like, but I&#8217;ve got these new ones I want to try,&#8221; and then players showed up and decided to play D&amp;D, then I would quit and never run an event open to the public again. </p>
<p>I really think game designers need to stop hurting the communities that are trying to build around their games. It&#8217;s a weird pattern I&#8217;ve noticed over the last several years. Their desire to &#8220;avoid divisiveness&#8221; is greater than their desire to support people that are actively running their games and teaching other people how to play them at conventions. I don&#8217;t know if that&#8217;s what Luke Crane was on about in the interview because I haven&#8217;t listened to it yet, but I&#8217;ve seen it from other designers and it baffles me.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Story games to the people by Per Fischer</title>
		<link>http://darkplaces.wordpress.com/2009/09/19/story-games-to-the-people/#comment-48</link>
		<dc:creator>Per Fischer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 20 Sep 2009 10:14:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://darkplaces.wordpress.com/?p=99#comment-48</guid>
		<description>Christian, thanks for dropping by. You can take that up with Luke himself on the BW forums, here&#039;s the thread about the podcast:
http://www.burningwheel.org/forum/showthread.php?t=8327

I was merely using Luke&#039;s points to continue my own thinking about how to bring story game to people outside the gaming community, especially those people who are already consuming fiction, ie. book readers, TV addicts and film goers.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Christian, thanks for dropping by. You can take that up with Luke himself on the BW forums, here&#8217;s the thread about the podcast:<br />
<a href="http://www.burningwheel.org/forum/showthread.php?t=8327" rel="nofollow">http://www.burningwheel.org/forum/showthread.php?t=8327</a></p>
<p>I was merely using Luke&#8217;s points to continue my own thinking about how to bring story game to people outside the gaming community, especially those people who are already consuming fiction, ie. book readers, TV addicts and film goers.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Story games to the people by Christian Griffen</title>
		<link>http://darkplaces.wordpress.com/2009/09/19/story-games-to-the-people/#comment-47</link>
		<dc:creator>Christian Griffen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 19 Sep 2009 14:12:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://darkplaces.wordpress.com/?p=99#comment-47</guid>
		<description>I think Luke misunderstands the term Story Game, possibly on purpose.  Story Games is a larger category of games that encompasses roleplaying and other games.  It&#039;s meant to avoid the whole &quot;that ain&#039;t roleplaying&quot; debate.  Anyone who spends even a few minutes on Story Games can find that D&amp;D is included in the term; it&#039;s been discussed (mostly positively, I may add) just like Dogs or Capes.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think Luke misunderstands the term Story Game, possibly on purpose.  Story Games is a larger category of games that encompasses roleplaying and other games.  It&#8217;s meant to avoid the whole &#8220;that ain&#8217;t roleplaying&#8221; debate.  Anyone who spends even a few minutes on Story Games can find that D&amp;D is included in the term; it&#8217;s been discussed (mostly positively, I may add) just like Dogs or Capes.</p>
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		<title>Comment on In GOD we trust by Mike</title>
		<link>http://darkplaces.wordpress.com/2009/02/13/in-god-we-trust/#comment-45</link>
		<dc:creator>Mike</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 01 Mar 2009 10:05:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://darkplaces.wordpress.com/?p=87#comment-45</guid>
		<description>Just passing by.Btw, you website have great content!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Just passing by.Btw, you website have great content!</p>
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		<title>Comment on The Pawlice &#8211; The Wire done Mouse Guard by Eric</title>
		<link>http://darkplaces.wordpress.com/2008/12/20/the-pawlice-the-wire-done-mouse-guard/#comment-41</link>
		<dc:creator>Eric</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 24 Jan 2009 06:25:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://darkplaces.wordpress.com/?p=65#comment-41</guid>
		<description>There are labels, at least these are the divisions I noticed while watching the first and second seasons. 

The beginning: The Case. This is where we prove that there is at all a problem to be solved or an opportunity seized by identifying the problem.

The middle: The Wire. This is where we try to identify the system the problem operates under and/or catch people who make the problems making the problem happen.

The end: The Score. Were we settle the matter of the case, which does not necessarily mean solving the case or resolving the underlying problem to begin with. 

I am not sure if the show continues this way in the third, fourth, and fifth seasons. 

Is a twist(GM) and a turn(PC) two separate pieces of currency for the phases? Is it procession of a dozen twists before a dozen turns? 

I wanted to do a Neon Genesis Evangelion hack for mouse guard and The infection mechanics applied, but preferred MG b/c I found creating settings worth of lifepaths too daunting. What I am getting at is that you are a genius.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There are labels, at least these are the divisions I noticed while watching the first and second seasons. </p>
<p>The beginning: The Case. This is where we prove that there is at all a problem to be solved or an opportunity seized by identifying the problem.</p>
<p>The middle: The Wire. This is where we try to identify the system the problem operates under and/or catch people who make the problems making the problem happen.</p>
<p>The end: The Score. Were we settle the matter of the case, which does not necessarily mean solving the case or resolving the underlying problem to begin with. </p>
<p>I am not sure if the show continues this way in the third, fourth, and fifth seasons. </p>
<p>Is a twist(GM) and a turn(PC) two separate pieces of currency for the phases? Is it procession of a dozen twists before a dozen turns? </p>
<p>I wanted to do a Neon Genesis Evangelion hack for mouse guard and The infection mechanics applied, but preferred MG b/c I found creating settings worth of lifepaths too daunting. What I am getting at is that you are a genius.</p>
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		<title>Comment on The Pawlice &#8211; The Wire done Mouse Guard by Per Fischer</title>
		<link>http://darkplaces.wordpress.com/2008/12/20/the-pawlice-the-wire-done-mouse-guard/#comment-40</link>
		<dc:creator>Per Fischer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 13 Jan 2009 17:35:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://darkplaces.wordpress.com/?p=65#comment-40</guid>
		<description>Chris, I like that. And sometimes the line between &quot;the right thing&quot; and institutional needs are blurred, and that&#039;s increases tension even more. For example Major Colvin&#039;s drug zone initiative in series 3, which actually solves some problems and produces non-monkey&#039;ed good stats but is unacceptable politically and PR-wise.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Chris, I like that. And sometimes the line between &#8220;the right thing&#8221; and institutional needs are blurred, and that&#8217;s increases tension even more. For example Major Colvin&#8217;s drug zone initiative in series 3, which actually solves some problems and produces non-monkey&#8217;ed good stats but is unacceptable politically and PR-wise.</p>
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